Q
of the week
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Last updated Sept 16, 2003 Q
of the week: Hi
- I've been reading the info on your website and am impressed with
your training methods. Especially teaching the "come". My question
for you is this: What do you think of electric shock collars for
training the "come". I personally could not think of a more lazy,
abusive way to train a dog you're supposed to love. However, my
dad thinks differently and I'm having no luck convincing him otherwise.
He just adopted an 8month old female shepard/akita mix. She's very
smart, easy going and they love her. He has been taught by an awful
trainer, whose name I won't mention, that the electric collar is
the most effective way to teach them to come. He thinks he's saving
her life by teaching a reliable recall. I was hoping you could help
me with an explanation to him as to why this training technique
should not be an option. Keeping in mind that this dog has been
neglected and hit with a broom by a male figure prior to him adopting
her. I am at my wits end. Please help. I respect your opinion and
views on training. thanks - Kathy
NANCY
Z IS MY HERO- The dog is very young and has already had bad experiences with human interaction. Amazing that the writer still describes the dog as "easy-going"! The dog is of mixed breed, but Shepherds and Akitas can be spirited and neither is small. (I'm not well-versed enough in the terminology and facts. I don't know how to word it... I don't want to use something like, "can have aggressive tendencies" but I just know that both breeds have been mentioned on the list of home-owner insurance risk" breeds.) It appears that the person doing the training is a male. The dog has already had bad experiences with a male. Is the other part of "... and 'they' love her." a female? If it is a female, will she be involved in the training? The gentleman wants to teach the dog, "For your own good, get away from that or there". This is not the same as, "Come". Since the dog cannot grasp the logic of the command, "For your own good, get away from that or there" the new owner wants to teach "Come", instead. [Wonderful point - the e-collar does teach "leave it" as opposed to come.] A shock cannot be associated with anything good. Any time I've seen psychological or sociological testing or training which involved shocking, the shock was associated with unpleasantness and primarily used to teach aversion or fear. Aversion or fear is incompatible with "come". So, to try and train the command "Come" with a shock collar is totally illogical. The least that could happen is the dog becomes a cowering lump of gelatin. The worst that could happen is the dog becomes confused and defensive and acts out on her fear and pain. That is, IF the dog would ever "come" at all! There are proven methods of training a reliable recall which will nurture this dog's relationship with the owner and help this dog develop confidence. It may take a lot more time, but the direct and indirect benefits of this positive-based training method would be well worth it! AND
RIGHT ON HER HEELS - CATHY! Thank heaven that this poor dog is now in the hands of someone who will take love her and take care of her, instead of hurting her all the time. I hate to think of what some of the residual behaviors that will result from this abuse. [Often the appeasing behavior of soft dogs is perceived as "abuse" when it may just be unsocialized. They may or may not really "know" that the dog was hit. I always err on the side of not letting this kind of comment have too much bearing on my reaction to the question at hand. In any event, this appears to BE a soft dog - and one for which punishment would be traumatic and uncalled for.] I must admit, my experience in dealing with shock collars is a "goose egg", nada, zero, zip, nothing plus nothing. I have, however, seen a few dogs that had been "trained" with shock collars, read a bit about them and not only am I not impressed, I'm appalled (sp?). Holy Smokes! This is training? Why in the world would a dog come to a person who has the buzzer? This dog probably knows who has the buzzer, and if she isn't giving her owner a reliable recall, who would blame her?! I wouldn't want to come to somebody who was physically hurting me either. Their reasoning is probably this dog will come to her person to avoid the pain -- eeewwwwww! What a tragic mindset. [Typically the dog has no idea the box the handler holds does the zapping ... it is more often associated with the environment and the dog comes to avoid the correction that happens away from the handler - the handler is still the safe place to get away from the scary painful thing.] A reliable recall needs to be taught, nurtured, respected and practiced. Reliability comes with practice. And more practice. There must be something good in it for the dog. In the event of an emergency, she is not going to stop and think to herself, "Gosh, if I don't come to him, I will get zapped." When you train with pain, although in many cases it works, you must continue to use those methods to maintain the desired behavior. One of the most valuable things about positive training, is that you have a dog that WANTS to work for you. Relationship relationship relationship. In that same emergency, with a dog that has been trained using positive methods, the dog hears her name, turns and runs her person. Ahhh!! Love, safety, comfort, and no pain! You've practiced it. Both of you know it. She wants to come to you. And hey, if there happens to be a cookie in the deal, well then COOL!!! [YES - Excellent!!!] This particular dog most probably will take some extra work due to the abuse. She has no reason to trust anybody at this time, and why should she. She has been lied to, hit, shocked. Jesus, no wonder they can't get a recall. The building of trust is a big factor, and it goes right along with leadership. They are going to need to show her that her new people can be trusted to keep her safe. Coming to them must mean good. So far, that has not been the case. more later............. cath AND
KIM - wow, as always, terrific outloud brainstorming! "I personally could not think of a more lazy, abusive way to train a dog you're supposed to love I'm having no luck convincing him otherwise I am at my wits end" The thing is, they both want the same thing. "they love her He thinks he's saving her life by teaching a reliable recall" And you know what? He is right! But how we build that recall can help or hinder the relationship. Yes, a recall can be built with an electronic collar. It has been done for years and is still being done (obviously). But what else are we possibly teaching our dogs and why are they returning to us when we say come. You have an adopted 8 month old female shepherd/akita mix who is very smart, easy going. We know a few things, 1) at 8 months the dog is in the second fear phase/possibley still in the flight fase and is an adolecent, 2) shepherds are "environmently intense" dogs (very aware of their envrionment and EVERYTHING in it) and 3) it takes on average 4 months for a re-homed dog to realize that it is "home". Consistent leadership is key with the adolecent/fear/flight dog and the newly adoped dog. Building the trust between handler/leader and dog is paramount. Leaders look out for their pack. They set them up to succeed. The provide safety for them. Putting a shock collar on and turning a dog loose in a field does the opposite for all of that. You are first telling the dog "you are on your own" and then "please fail when I call you". Also, with a dog that may be very intense on the environment, they are gonna notice things that we humans would never see. Was the dog focused on an object/sound/sent and did not hear the come command, then got a shock. What was that shock for? Looking at the tree? The bird scurring thru the brush? The dog barking in the distance? Or for not coming? The dog may not know what it was for, and begin to associate the shock with something other than not comming. Remember, dogs come from a different culter and they speak a foriegn language. The dog may learn on his own that the world away from dad is a very scary painful place. Is this what we really want? Also, this dog is very smart; she may hear the "come" not understand, get a shock, and then realize "ahhhh, come means pain". Dad calls come again, dog runs in the opposite direction, shock, "dad means pain". Not a good way to build a trusting relationship between a dog and owner, especially when it is reported that this dog was "beaten" by the previous male owner. Taking a dog that does not know/understand what come may be and putting them out in a field (or wherever) and asked to come then punishing her for it, is like putting a first grader in a college calculus class and wrapping him on the knuckles with a ruler for not getting the right answer. But if we take that same child and start with "baby steps"- teaching him to add, then subtract, fractions, elementary algebra, geometry......by the time he is in college, he will be prepaired to do the calculus. He will have a history of building on his previous successes as the level of difficulty grew. [I LOVE the analogy!] Same holds true for the come. Start by come to dinner, come from a few feet away, come from the bedroom to the living room. Give that dog an A+ everytime (smiles, praise, treat treat treat) she comes at first, then beging to random reward with big payouts to increase the spead of the recall (but praise everytime!). If you have to break it up in even smaller steps, stand directly infront of the dog and "come-treat-come-treat-come-treat-come-treat-come-treat" (like click/treat), then take a step backwards call the dog to come, lure into position if needed. The build until you are accross the room. Babysteps with huge payouts. Then, whe you are out and about, and you need to call your dog, guess what, they will come becuase they want to come to you. It is a party. It is fun. It is great rewards! Is is NOT because it is the dog's only way to avoid pain. With shock, they are looking to avoid pain, not necessarily coming to you becuase they want to. Big difference. Another side benefit of training come this way vs. remote, you can use the environment as a reward. "good sit! okay, go check it out" and the dog can go sniff that tree. Real life rewards will work because real life is not scary! [Brilliant!] Lordy! I have rambled and have probably made no sense! Kim [She
always makes PERFECT sense! Good job, Kim!] My
reply: (I always write my answer
before I get yours) Bless you for trying to train your father! The most important goal, especially the first few weeks and months of owning a new dog, and especially one with a previous life where she may not have been treated well, is to establish a strong bond and relationship built on trust and respect. Ask your dad, would he rather have a dog who came because their bond was so strong that she would rather be near him than anywhere else on the planet? Or would he rather she came because she was afraid not to? Would he do that to his best friend? The power of a pain association is incredibly strong. It creates a major avoidance/stress response. What the dog was seeing, touching, thinking or smelling at the moment it experienced the shock may quickly become associated with the pain. I've worked with trying to rebuild the confidence of traumatized dogs - a Dachshund who became terrified of lawn because just as it stepped from the concrete patio onto the grass its invisible fence collar zapped it. It took months to overcome and in the mean time not only did its housetraining go down the tubes, but imagine the stress the poor dog felt every time the owner let it outside! I knew a Golden retriever who was zapped as he was investigating a cow pie - his association was to panic and fall into a shivering mass of golden fur at the mere sight of a cow pie in a pasture. It wasn't a terrible problem as it was a City dog - but imagine if the association had been the presence of a child? Dog training requires patience and dedication and lots of practice - electricity is a quick fix used most often by those who are more interested in quick results with minimal effort than building a rich relationship. Good
luck and let me know how it goes! In response: Carol - Thanks for the backup. I am planning on gathering all the info I can and approaching him tonite. I love my Dad alot, but on this subject we are completely polarized. Hopefully, I can get him to at least hear me out. I originally found your site while looking for information about better understanding my dog. I stumbled across your new puppy blues article. It was fantastic and very helpful for me, as Ben, my dog is an Australian shepard/golden retriever mix and the puppy you discuss (Abby) is an Aussie. Thank you again, for taking time out of your busy day to respond so quickly! I will direct my dad to your website. I'll keep you updated on my progress, if any. Kathy p.s. I've attached a picture of Ben in his favorite place, the water.
Thanks again for all your great advice. I will keep you updated on my progress. My anger at his use of this device, overwhelms me at times and I am at a loss for words so any backup from more learned dog-people is greatly appreciated. I
have another theory about this e-collar. They (my parents) used
to own an american bulldog. Very intelligent and independent. My
dad also used the collar on her because the breeder promoted its
use. His reasoning being, the breed is very stubborn and pain tolerance
is high. He believed it was the best and quickest method to train
a reliable recall. The dog died at 5 years of age. Initially she
suffered a liver problem, had 2 surgeries which cost 14 thousand
dollars at angell memorial animal hospital then had a problem with
her inner ear. I forget the name of the disease, but it causes unsteadiness
and a titling of the head. Her balance was off, causing her to fall
and injure herself. She had to be put down. My mother was devastated.
My thought is that the electric collar somehow contributed to this
illness. I wish I could prove it or someone could do more research
on these things but that is my theory. It makes me sick to think
breeders would promote the use of such a device. Again, thank you! Hi Kathy- There's no way to know whether the e-collar contributed or not to the bulldog's ailment - and it would be impossible to prove. But whether or not, wouldn't it have been a better, albeit short, life for this dog if they'd put the time and patience into training her with love and respect? I own sight hounds - a breed called stubborn, stupid, hard to train by trainers who use punishment based methods. Don't believe for one minute that "fails to accept abuse" is the same as stupid - "hard to train" is the result of the failure of the method. I have whippets who will retrieve a dropped dime or a gallon of milk and can be called away from chasing a cat - and it's not because I've jerked, shocked or hurt them. I don't know how "knowledgable" the trainer is who is telling your father that the ONLY way to get a reliable recall is to use a shock collar, but ANY time you use an aversive in training, your timing and execution must be IMPECCABLE - and let's face it, first time dog owners can't give a cookie or say "yes" with impeccable timing. To put a remote for a shock collar in their hand is cruelty waiting to happen. Where are you located? Perhaps I can put you in touch with a positive trainer in your area? -Carol
I am located close to Boston, MA. However, I have recommended a positive pet trainer (Glenn Goldman from Petdog training in GLoucester, MA) to my dad. Glenn helped me train Ben, my aussie mix. He has been a trainer for over 20 years and has always owned Akita's, as you well know, a dog with a bad reputation. We have had dogs my whole life, whom my father things he "trained". Mostly german shepherds, exceptionally intelligent and easily trained without the use of e-collars. It is only since he became interested in American bulldogs that he has resorted to this collar device at the recommendation of the ABulldog breeder/trainer. I am hoping that the huge amount of material I have collected will show him that the advise he was given was wrong and inhumane. He really does love the dog and truly believes the pain associated with the e-collar is minimal. I will not give up on this. He will see things my way. Thanks again. Good
news! My
Comments: Would I "ever" consider such a collar to teach come? No, absolutely not. ... with one maybe - if the alternative for the dog was death and then, not to teach "come" but to counter high prey drive and low pack drive, as a "last resort" for a committed deer or car chasing dog who is going to be shot by local authorities or killed for repeating a life threatening behavior -and here, of course, I would recommend a FENCE before a shock collar. Perhaps to teach a dog who is at risk of being poisoned to leave "found food in the yard" alone - to create a total aversion that might save its life. (Ultimately dedicated management and a solid fence is the better answer to both problems.) The use of such a collar would be as follows: teach the dog a really reliable recall using shaping and positive reinforcement in small increments and increasing distractions. Once the dog totally understands what "come" means (responds reliably a minimum of 80% of the time under many levels of distraction) and is clearly making a "choice" to disregard the command, use the collar as you would a leash pop for "leave it". ) It would not be used to "teach" the come - but to proof the "leave it" part of the come. Follow-up
links: [scroll
down on this link:] This
is what you are up against when you argue the use of e-collars:
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